As he sits in a zoom interview suite a continent away, enduring one interview after another, Willem Dafoe is beaming. And, frankly, who can blame him? Over the past year, he’s worked with Guillermo del Toro (“Nightmare Alley”), reunited with Robert Eggers (“The Northman“), and collaborated with Yorgos Lanthimos for the first time (“Poor Things”). Arguably three of the most creative auteurs working in cinema today. Oh, right and he’s finally been revealed as reprising his role as Norman Osborn (the Green Goblin) in the expected monster blockbuster “Spider-Man: No Way Home.” In fact, he responded to any questions about that project with a “No” and, again, a huge grin on his face. The now 66-year-old actor has had some major peaks in a legendary career and he’s currently in the middle of another.
In “Nightmare Alley,” Dafoe plays Clem Hoately, the proprietor of a small, sketchy carnival full of Depression-era survivors. He thinks he’s found a kindred spirit in Stan Carlisle (Bradley Cooper), a drifter looking for work wherever he can find it. While Clem seems “somewhat” genuine, he has a dark side that is immediately apparent in one of the main attractions of his carnival, a geek show, which in this case, centers on a caged, food-deprived drug addict. In Clem’s eyes, however, he’s just serving a public need.
“He’s giving the people a thrill, giving them a little taste of ‘But there for the grace of God go I.’ That’s part of what functions in a geek show,” Dafoe explains. “People are horrified. And one of the gifts that they get from that experience is ‘Whoa, I’m glad that’s not me’ or ‘How horrible, that’s not me.’ He can justify it that way.”
Dafoe adds, “I don’t judge him. It’s kind of ridiculous to judge him, but he’s a guy that’s trying to make a living in tough times. The kind of dark world view in this movie is these are people that live through the depression, second World War’s coming, it’s hard to make a living. They know what it’s like to be out of work. They know what it’s like to be hungry. They’re not going to have that happen. So, they’re going to do what they can to keep them and their own well. And he even to some degree extends himself to other people as is the case when he kind of brings Stan into the community. He’s a little suspicious of him and he shakes him down, but he mentors him a little bit much in the same way that Zeena [Toni Collette] does. Now, who knows if Stan’s such a heel that he’ll betray both of them?”
Dafoe reflects on his busy year, working with del Toro, Lanthimos, and much more in the context of the entire interview.
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The Playlist: Obvious question for you. What sparked your interest in “Nightmare Alley” when the project came your way?
Willem Dafoe: Initially Guillermo, Guillermo, Guillermo. I like his movies. I know him a little bit. He’s passionate about cinema. He’s talented. He’s fun to be around. To be on a set and after you do a take or you invent something or you have an idea, it’s music to my ears to hear him say, “I like that”. That’s a fair, not a great, but a fair impersonation. “I like that”. It’s about helping him do what he does because I like him.
You’ve worked with so many fantastic filmmakers over your career. What about Guillermo sets him apart working on set? Is it that energy?
It’s partly that, I mean, he’s the king on the set. Also, it’s just… he’s playful, but he is also hardcore. That’s an interesting combination. In a similar way, I’m always struck by…I can’t think of someone that mixes genres like he does so well. He makes these hybrids, that really can’t be identified, but at the same time always have his very personal stamp on them.
Did he tell you anything before production started about your character Clem that might not have been in the script? Or did he just want you to sort of go with what was on the page?
Well, go with what was on the page and he was still working on certain ideas structurally about how Clem functions and still talking about scenes. So, we talked about those things. Some of them, we executed, some end up in the movie, some don’t. So, we were making it together. I really felt a sense of collaboration. But as far as him tipping me off to something in particular, not really. There are certain things that he really wanted. We talked about this. And this is personal. This doesn’t necessarily land in the movie, but a certain kind of vanity. Like [Clem] had a thing with his shoes that he always liked them clean. And you don’t really see that in the movie. Maybe for one second, you see close-up of the shoes and him brushing them. But as we’re doing it, that becomes a big issue. That is something that really roots you, that he’s got a shoe thing.
Actors always say they never see their characters as bad guys, but it will be hard for audiences not to see Clem in that vein. What do you think is motivating him?
Well, he grew up through the Depression, probably has seen some rough times. It’s about taking care of people and making a living. This is his profession. He takes care of his own. That’s not explicit, but you kind of feel like that. He’s a provider. He wants to make this thing work. This is what he does. That’s what it’s about. And even in his kind of scary and kind of brutal description of how to make a geek, you have the sense of objectivity. It’s like, “This is not me. We just do this thing and they take the bait because of their particular nature.”
And he just justifies it in that other people must be doing this too.
Yeah and ultimately he’s serving his public. He’s giving the people a thrill, giving them a little taste of “But there for the grace of God go I.” That’s part of what functions in a geek show. People are horrified. And one of the gifts that they get from that experience is “Whoa, I’m glad that’s not me” or “How horrible, that’s not me”. He can justify it that way. I mean, as you say, I don’t judge him. It’s kind of ridiculous to judge him, but he’s a guy that’s trying to make a living in tough times. The kind of dark world view in this movie is these are people that live through the depression, second world war’s coming, it’s hard to make a living. They know what it’s like to be out of work. They know what it’s like to be hungry. They’re not going to have that happen. So, they’re going to do what they can to keep them and their own well. And he even to some degree extends himself to other people as is the case when he kind of brings Stan into the community. He’s a little suspicious of him and he shakes him down, but he mentors him a little bit much in the same way that Zeena [Toni Collette] does. Now, who knows if Stan’s such a heel that he’ll betray both of them?
Do you think he sees that Bradley’s character has that possibility?
He does, but I guess that’s the interesting thing. That’s where Clem is not a total bad guy because he sees it, but he gives him the benefit of the doubt and even accepts him and takes him in. There’s a sense of, “Oh, he’s suspicious.” But then once he says, “Don’t mess with me”. Then he says, “This guy is like me. He’s one of us”. So, he takes him in and then essentially [Stan] betrays him by not staying in the community and also taking the Rooney Mara character away.
I believe you guys shot most of the film before the pandemic hit. Did you shoot all of it beforehand? Or did you have to go back?
You know how the movie is kind of like two parts basically?
Sure.
There’s the working class, rough carnival. And then there are the nightclub wealthy people [portions], those two sections. Most of the second part was shot before the COVID shutdown. Most.
Oh, wow.
And then the carnival world happened afterward. And because I wasn’t part of the second part, someone else could address this. But I think that kind of helped with the first part because it allowed Bradley and also Guillermo to plant seeds of what comes in the second part. I mean, that’s part of the story, but just little details. Because you know how the story ends. So, you could tell the beginning of it differently with that kind of knowledge.
Was this one of the first things you did after the stay at home?
I did like a supporting role in Robert Egger’s “The Northman” before. So, it was the second film I did. After there was a shutdown, pretty much worldwide, as far as film was concerned.
And knowing that this crew they’d all shot all this months beforehand, did you feel like you were coming into like a whole family that already knew each other?
No. As far as the carnival community and that part of the movie, it’s a group of people that live together, work together. They have their scenes, but there’s also lots of group scenes where everybody is, I don’t want to say an extra, but we’re together. It’s not just about doing these power scenes. We’re hanging out. We’re always in the background. The scene may be in the foreground, but people are having dinner in the background. So there’s lots of cross-fertilization and cross hanging out. And yeah, it felt like a little community. It’s a short, reasonably short amount of time. But yeah, just the nature of the story brought us together. And it’s an interesting group of actors. Some Guillermo regulars, some new people, but all interesting actors. I can’t think of a bum in the group. Unless that would be me…[Laughs].
But wait, I have to ask you about your other upcoming projects because you have another Robert Egger’s movie, you’re shooting I think Yorgos Lanthimos movie…
I did that already. Yeah. I finished that.
Oh, that’s done? I guess my question is, are you just excited to go on every project you do? You’re working with the world’s greatest by auteurs like every week.
No, I’m very happy with what I’ve been able to do recently. And the way that it’s all feeling like it’s boom, boom, boom is because a pandemic, because a lot of these things were in various states of being figured out. And then when everything froze, nothing happened. And then when it started again, all these things came together and they were very good about cooperating with scheduling with each other. So once I started working, I never stopped. Now I’ve got a little bit of a break. I’m an unemployed actor right now. I just finished a movie two days ago and I’m doing this press for “Nightmare Alley” and yeah, I’m just another guy looking for a job now. [Laughs.]
I don’t believe that to be honest. [Laughs].
Well, I have some ideas about some things on the line, but really, I don’t know what my next movie is.
Yorgos Lanthimos’ tone and how he shoots things is so different from other filmmakers.
Fantastic. But all I can say is, I was over the moon about that project and I wasn’t disappointed. I mean, I haven’t seen it, but the shooting was beautiful. A great cast. He’s incredible. And I love how he works.
Well, Tom Holland gave it away that you’re in the next “Spider-Man” movie and I’m sure you don’t want to talk about it, which is fine. You’ve done so many big projects in your career, have you ever dealt with so much secrecy on a film ever before? Did you ever feel like you were in a little bubble working on something for god knows how long that you couldn’t tell anyone anything?
No.
That’s a good answer. Are you allowed to say anything or…?
No.
O.K. Nevermind that. That makes sense. [Laughs.]
Listen, I’ll know when you know.
Do you have people like Guillermo and other friends asking you anything about it?
Guillermo no, but sure. People ask me all the time. And I give them the same answer. [Pause] No.
It works. It totally works. [Laughs.] My last question for you is, what struck you the most when you finally got to see “Nightmare?” Especially knowing you didn’t shoot the other portion.
Oh, what struck me the most? When you watch it, you’re always reacting to the cut, how the story is told. So, I got to see it again before I can say anything smart about that. It was interesting because there’s a half of the movie that is a world that I didn’t enter at all. And the carnival world is a preparation for that world. So, when I see this movie, it’s something that I know very well and something I know nothing about. And that’s very unusual. You can be in a part of a movie, but you’ve read the script and you kind of have a sense of it, but these are very distinct different worlds, but they’re connected by that Bradley character. So it was interesting to see.
“Nightmare Alley” opens nationwide Dec. 17.
