Sean Baker On ‘Red Rocket’ & The Art Of Street Casting [Interview]

How does Sean Baker do it? No, we’re not questioning his writing or directing talent. Over the past decade, he’s consistently demonstrated he’s one of the most exemplary American auteurs working today. What we want to know is how Baker, and his regular producing crew, continue to find incredible first-time actors for his films, such as the newcomers in his latest film, “Red Rocket.”

READ MORE: Simon Rex Is A Suitcase Pimp In Sean Baker’s “Red Rocket” [Cannes Review]

Speaking to The Playlist last month, the “Tangerine” and “The Florida Project” director broke down his process for “street casting” into three parts. First, when he sees someone that he knows he’d like to watch on screen for two hours, he registers that as an undefinable “it” quality. Second, when speaking to a potential actor, they have to have enthusiasm for the prospect. If they genuinely aren’t interested in taking that jump, it will never work. And, finally, the third step is having them audition. And to determine whether they actually have talent. He notes, “And then you can use that to either inflate or deflate the size of their character.” Moreover, he admitted that sometimes it doesn’t work (as with an unnamed supporting character he’d cast for “Tangerine”). But, most importantly, he admits he’s been quite lucky.

“Every case is a little different. I mean, Suzanna Son, I met her at Arclight Hollywood in the lobby, just because again, she had that thing, that presence,” Baker says. “And [one of my producers] and I walked over to her and said, ‘You know, we street cast for our films. We don’t have anything going on right now, but let’s exchange information, and maybe down the line, we can work together.’ And I went home that night, and I found out that Suzanna already had an Instagram presence. And the reason she was in Hollywood is that she was an aspiring actor. So I was like, ‘O.K., this isn’t just a civilian from outside the industry that I’m trying to get into it.’ She already wants to do this. So, two years later when,n ‘Red Rocket’ resurfaced, I said to everybody, ‘I already have Strawberry worked out. It’s Suzanna Son, who we met at the movie theater two years ago.’ So we called her up. And she said, ‘I’ve been waiting two years for your call. I almost gave up.’”

Good thing she didn’t.

This interview has been edited and condensed from the original conversation.

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The Playlist: This was your first film in competition at Cannes. What was that like for you?
It was, of course, mind-blowing and a dream come true. But lots of that was realized, like, after the fact. It was a dream come true going. And we obviously felt like we won just by being accepted into the main competition. I mean, this has been like a career goal of mine forever. But in the moment, I had a complete Larry David “Curb Your Enthusiasm” [reaction]. I can’t get over my neurosis. And when I was in the theater, I didn’t feel the audience’s vibe that well because the acoustics are so good in the place that I couldn’t detect whether the audience was into it or not. Plus, Cannes audiences are more subdued.

Absolutely.
So, the end credits came up, and for two minutes, I had this insane, neurotic conversation with my wife next to me, Sam. And I’m like, “Sam, we’re not going to get an ovation. It’s O.K. I’m chill. I’m not going to freak out. It’ll play better in the States. Don’t worry. I’m going to have to talk to my actors. Because if we get boos, they won’t understand.” I was going through all of that in my head. Like, not just in my head, I was having this conversation for two minutes during the end credits. Then the ovation begins. And I thought it was a mercy clap.

Aw.
So for two minutes more, I’m just in this state of like, “O.K.”, and I’m hugging everybody. It’s sort of like ‘a better luck next time’ sort of thing. And then I look at my French distributor. Who’s like, “No, it’s good. It’s good.” And I’m like, “Oh, it’s good?” And then it was like a 180, flipping on my head, going, “O.K., I just went from thinking I bombed to people loving it.” So that’s the experience I had at Cannes.

I remember how you and your longtime writing partner, Chris Bergoch, talked about how you found the story for The Florida Project. How. did this one come to you?
Well, Chris introduced me to some suitcase pimps back in the day when we were researching that film called “Starlet” that I made before “Tangerine.” And so we shot in some real model houses that Mikey Saber refers to, references in the film. “I own three model houses.” We shot in one of those. So essentially, we got to know a couple of these guys and realized there was this archetype in the adult film world, you know, and they actually had this slang term applied to them, suitcase pimp. You can look it up on urbandictionary.com.

Yeah.
And so we, I just was, like, fascinated, you know, by their psyche, by, you know. I found myself always torn when hanging out with them because I was entertained and actually found them quite funny and enjoying myself, and then realizing after the fact that I was like, participating in this weird, like talking about their stories. They were pretty horrible stories. Like, they would have very negative effects on other people’s lives. And they weren’t even very aware of it. And yet, because of their outward charm and appeal and sense of humor, I was just sort of like, “Ha, ha, ha.” And then I would beat myself up at night for doing that.

So, I was of two minds of these gentlemen, and I felt like if we could do a character study of one of these guys and put the audience in that same mindset, that would be quite a challenge. So it was something that we had on the back burner for years. I mean, like it was something, on the set of “Starlet,” I remember my DP saying there’s a whole other story with one of these guys. It’s been around for a while. And when COVID hit, and we had to put [this] other production on hold, we weren’t in production yet, we were in development, I pivoted to “Red Rocket,” which was just on the back burner, and we already had a beginning, middle and end worked out. So, it was really just about fleshing it out a little more, so when we were in pre-production, discovering Texas City, etc., etc. But that’s how it came about.

How quickly did you pivot? How fast were you filming from when you made that decision?
The initial spark of the idea of, like, maybe we should make something was around February of 2020 when we were sitting here in LA going, “Oh my God, I guess we’re not getting back to that.” Meaning this other film. And my producer reached out and said, “I think I can find you money for a small movie if you have something.” So that was that. Well, I was like, “Yeah, we have ‘Red Rocket.’” So throughout March, April, May, we were, I guess, getting financing in place, starting to flesh out script, doing interviews, getting consultants on board. Then in June, my producer, Alex Coco, and I took off and went to Texas, then Corpus Christi, and then drove north and hit every refinery town until we found Texas City and fell in love with Texas City. For many reasons, not just the visual aspect of it, but also the area’s history. And just realizing that it would be the perfect place to have this movie take place. And then my crew came out. So now we’re talking July, and this is for hard prep, I guess you’d call it. And that’s when I got a false positive. So we had to retreat, get all the way back to LA, realized that this was a false positive. But that month allowed us that extra little bit of prep I think we really needed. And so we got back in August, and that was when we just got everything going. I guess the first day of September is when we shot. So it was a hardcore five months of just getting everything ready and going.

Have you ever had a project come together so fast in your career?
Actually, no. Maybe this and “Take Out,” like way back, because “Take Out “was very much making stuff up as we were going along. One of the big things that I always say is, “time is actually more valuable.” Time is the most valuable thing when it comes to these independent films. And in this case, because of COVID and because of budget, we didn’t really have a lot of time. And we were speeding up just because we always felt we were running from COVID.

I get it. You guys were trying to get it done before the winter wave.
Yeah. And like, if we could like, get through these 23 days of production, get something in the can, it was like, that was the achievement that we were, you know, that’s what we were trying to achieve. Now, to answer your question, it was way more sped up than other productions. However, thank God I had this idea and understanding this archetype for the last ten years. So, it’s been brewing for like ten years, maybe even on a subconscious level.

Where did the idea come to cast Simon Rex? Was it your casting director?
Well, I’m the casting director of this film. Right after the “Florida Project,” we entertained many ideas. “Red Rocket” was one of them. And we decided not to do it. But you know, we spent a few days on it at the moment. And that was when it was like breaking down the beginning, middle and end. And I remember texting my producer at that point with one of Simon’s Vine videos and saying, “If we make Red Rocket, it’s going to be this guy.” And [producer] Alex Saks texted me back, “Hahaha, hilarious. O.K.” But to tell you the truth, Simon and I are about the same age; I’ve been following his career for two and a half decades. I remember when he like premiered on MTV Raps.

Yeah
You know, interviewing Tupac and everything, and then seeing him in “Scary Movie” and the Dirt Nasty years. But it was the Vine years, and all the other social media that he was doing that was like, just further convincing me that this guy had talent. And he was consistently entertaining me. Like, just over the years consistently entertaining me. And I always wondered why the industry wasn’t giving him meatier, more dramatic roles.

Did you have to convince him to take the part?
No. It was wonderful. It was, like, very fast. I didn’t even have to go through agents or managers because my sister knew…I was one degree away from him, essentially.

O.K.
And I gave him a call. And he says that he knew my films, but I honestly think he was being nice. But he did, I guess, look me up and maybe watched “Florida Project” or something. And then got on the phone, and we talked a bit of it. And I asked him for a self-tape, and I sent him the scene in the kitchen at the beginning where [Mickey] is sort of telling his ex Lexi and his mother-in-law about how he got there. And I sent them the pages, and he sent back a video in 20 minutes. Like a self-tape, in 20 minutes. And I was like, “Oh, this is a red flag if he’s doing it this fast.” But I watched it, and he was like 90% there. He got the character; he understood it. I said, “I want you to exhaust us.” Because hanging out with these guys, I always felt exhausted listening to their, you know, nonstop motor mouths. So, he got that down. He got the man-child thing down. All of that stuff was there. And so I offered him the role. And I said, we’d love to have you in Texas ASAP to get started. And he goes, “Dude, I’m just sitting up in Joshua Tree doing nothing. I’ll hit the road tomorrow and be there in three days.” And we talked on the phone while he was driving a little bit to help flesh out the character. But when he arrived, he, the first day, we rehearsed with him and Brie Elrod, who plays Lexi, and they nailed it. It put me at such ease. I was so relaxed, going, “I can now rely on these two. They’re my professional, seasoned actors. And I’m going to surround them with a lot of first-timers, but I can rely on them as the backbone.” And they delivered.

You have such a good knack for finding non-professional actors who are captivating on-screen. How do you know that from putting someone on tape? Is there a spark you look for? Like, was it just a gut instinct?
You know, I’m such a cinephile, I watch so many films. When I see somebody who I can say, “I can [and] I want to watch that person on the big screen for two hours”, it’s usually that undefinable “it” quality. It starts with a physicality thing. Obviously, like an aura, they’re putting out some sort of energy. And then they have the right physicality. So that’s the initial spark. And then when you talk with them, you have to find an enthusiasm. That’s step two. They have the enthusiasm and are interested in doing this. And then, step three is to find out whether they actually have talent or not. And that comes through the first few rehearsals. So, and then you can use that to either inflate or deflate the size of their character. But I’ve been fortunate. I’ve just had my eyes open for a while, and I’ve found these wonderful people who have incredible talent and, yeah, every case is a little different. I mean, Suzanna Son, I met her at Arclight Hollywood in the lobby, just because again, she had that thing, that presence. And [one of my producers] and I walked over to her and said, “You know, we street cast for our films. We don’t have anything going on right now, but let’s exchange information, and maybe down the line, we can work together.” And I went home that night, and I found out that Suzanna already had an Instagram presence. And the reason she was in Hollywood is because she was an aspiring actor. So I was like, “O.K., this isn’t just a civilian from outside the industry that I’m trying to get into it.” She’s already wanting to do this. So, two years later, when “Red Rocket” resurfaced, I said to everybody, “I already have Strawberry worked out. It’s Suzanna Son, who we met at the movie theater two years ago.” So we called her up. And she said, “I’ve been waiting two years for your call.”

Oh.
“I almost gave up.” like, she really said that. And I was just like, “O.K., but we’re ready to go.” And so. And yeah, so that’s really how it sort of happens. And each case is a little different.

You do street casting; you call her up and want to talk to her about it. I’m assuming you had her do an audition. Do you ever question yourself, “Well, maybe I should look at like three or four actors or actresses before I go down this road?”
Yeah, sometimes.

Or is that instinct important to you?
Oh, of course. Sometimes. And you know, you, to play it safe, you do have some other actors or other names that you’re considering for the role. But again, I’ve been extremely lucky with the ones that I want. You know, they are the ones who are shining. And, you know, there’s always, every film has at least one maybe like supporting first-timer that I thought, “Oh, they’re so incredible in real life. Like they have these wonderful personas.” But you put a camera in their face, and they shut down. Like I would shut down. I can’t be in front of the camera. So it happens. It’s not going to be everybody. I think one of the big ones was with “Tangerine.” We had a supporting character and the minute that I, when he arrived on set, and I put the iPhone in his face, it was like, bomp!

Ugh.
So you have to adjust. And because these movies are sort of organically fleshing themselves out, at that point, I have to say, “O.K., we’re going to reduce character down to almost no lines and figure out another way of getting this exposition out or this arc.” That’s the way it works.

You mentioned the fact that you’d had “Red Rocket” percolating for a while. Do you have a little tiny stack of movie ideas that you are trying to pull off?
Tiny stack. Tiny stack. It’s like three ideas. Like right now, we’re in that place again where it’s like, what’s next? And it’s COVID, and we kind of have to consider how big the next project will be. But it’s also like what feels right at the time. Like, I don’t know why “Red Rocket” just seemed to be the suitable film to make at that time last year. And I like the way it’s playing out because it is becoming a part of the conversation about whether or not people want to see anti-heroes in 2021. And that’s part of the reason I made it. To challenge the audience that way. Sometimes you’re dictated by the time you’re living in and the environment that tells you what stories should be told at that moment.

“Red Rocket” is now in theaters nationwide.